1908 machine used in Gary W. Va. mine - what is it?

KorbenDallas said:

I'm trying to figure out who built this machine and when it was actually done. Looks kinda too cool for 1908 IMHO. I'm probably looking it up all wrong but I can't find any info.

Official description, "Machine used in Gary W. Va. mine that digs the coal and loads it on the car. With it 3 men can do the work of 50 in the old way. Yet they use boys to drive and trap."

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KD: Does it look normal to you for 1908? How was it powered in your opinion?

• What was the name of this machine, who invented and produced it?

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On having a second look at this machine I reckon it was used in a coal yard not a mine. Basically it is a combination of mechanical shovel and conveyor designed to reduce labour costs.
As the coal was brought ty the surface and graded it was piled in great heaps seemingly held in place by the wall we see in the photo probably has two adjoining walls to form a bay or maybe it was just piled against the wall we see which acted as the retaining wall.

The presence of multiple rail lines in the photo shows the machines loading purpose backed up by the description.
Machines once running are not paid wages. Men loading a conveyor with shovels are.

As for the missing nameplate. We only see one side of the thing. It could've anywhere.
I get the feeling it is a crop from a bigger photograph.
There is nothing in the photo itself to suggest either location within the United States or even if its in the United States at all. All there is is the descriptions wording.
The chopped off figure to the right of the photo is I feel a full grown man not a boy as this would suggest scale for the machine and a boy scaled machine, so too speak, would not shift as much coal as a man sized machine. C!umsy but accurate way of putting it.

Its power source is definitely electricity so this places it in the electricity era. No way to tell what was used AC or DC which would help in p!acing it in the official timeline.

In an issue of “Concrete” vol19 from 1921 I found this advert:


It’s not a continuous miner or ripper, but as a conveyor it doesn’t compare!

Zooming around I noticed Cotter Pins on the machine.

"In 1912, the family inventor Ira J. Young applied for a patent on a machine for forming split pins, later to be known as Cotter Pins."

Hmmmm. I did find that on some company’s Facebook page, and some other company’s website. I don’t buy it though. Magically, Wikipedia has nothing to say about the history of the pin, but I have a suspicion that the cotter or split pin is far older than 1912. That patent appears to be for a machine to manufacture the pins, not the pins themselves.

though I also did find a reference to “Irish inventor John Cotter who invented it in 1922” but I also doubt that.

Meriam-Webster says the word first appeared in print in 1881.

The Mechanician and Constructor from 1869 clearly describes how to make and use these pins.

I’m actually quite surprised that there’s no mention of cotter pin/split pin/split key before 1850. Maybe there’s another name I don’t know, but I would imagine that simplistic fastener to be far older than the 1850s!

reverendALC said:

"but I would imagine that simplistic fastener to be far older than the 1850s!

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I looked at pictures of American Conestoga wagons (1820s and 1840s) and Prairie Schooners (1840s and 1850s).

Those are made mostly of wood with some metal. no Cotter pins or wood-like pins.

GalleryPeanut said:

I looked at pictures of American Conestoga wagons (1820s and 1840s) and Prairie Schooners (1840s and 1850s).

Those are made mostly of wood with some metal. no Cotter pins or wood-like pins.

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Wait. Found what might be a pin on a Prairie Schooner.


Prairie Schooners 1840s and 1850s

Hats off to you sir. For whatever it’s worth, we are honing in on the introduction of the cotter pin. It must be somewhere between 1800 and 1869. Your idea of looking at old equipment for cotter pins is clever. I inspected old photos of steam engines and tons of other equipment circa 1800 and I see what you see:

wedge pins. They’re similar to cotter pins, except they’re not captive. They’re driven in, and they expand in size further up the shank, so eventually friction takes over.

Coming back to the topic under discussion the machine and its place in the timeline.
The image is in the LOC collection.
The photograph was taken by an American photographer Lewis Wickes Hine,.
From this site we get this.Bold is my emphasis

Born in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, Lewis W. Hine studied sociology before moving to New York in 1901 to work at the Ethical Culture School, where he took up photography to enhance his teaching practices. By 1904 he had begun a series of photographs documenting the arrival of immigrants at Ellis Island; this project, along with his pictures of harsh labor conditions published in the Pittsburgh Survey, brought his work to the attention of the National Child Labor Committee. He served as its official photographer from 1911 to 1916, and later traveled with the Red Cross to Europe, where he documented the effects of World War I in France and the Balkans for Red Cross Magazine.

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So from that is clear Lewis Hine was using photography to document the harsh employment conditions of his day. He was active in this from 1904 to 1916 therefore it places his photograph of the machine in this 12 year span of time.

Going to startpage with the string Lewis Wickes Hine Gary brought up this image also in the LOC collections.

It is as good evidence that we get that he was at the coal mine in Gary after 1905 as evidenced by the date inscribed into the tunnel entrance.
This adds to the probability of the machine being photographed on the same visit.

The LOC site states it was published or created in 1908 so all things considered the machine dates to no later than 1908 and indeed the LOC page for the machine photo bears the same 1908 date.
Given Lewis Hines intention of exposing or recording exploitation it makes sense that he would show the miners, the humans being exploited alongside the machine which reduces the exploitation. The fact he was at this particular mine suggests it was the first one to replace men with a machine.
I haven't looked furtther as the evidence is overwhelming already.

As is the evidence it is a machine powered by electricity ergo it is in its time not out of its time.
A final piece would be the newspaper article(s) about it as they would likely name the inventor and/or manufacturer but I suspect they are not digitised so boots on the ground are needed and few bother with that route.

Edit to correct the auto correct on this tablet yoke.
Incidentally there is a tif file available on the LOC page which is a much higher resolution than the jpeg so details are much clearer. I just cannot open it without a computer.

LOC also has this photograph titled, "Boy braking on motor train 10 hrs. a day. Where mining, loading, etc. is done by machinery. Live wire above is sometimes not higher than a man's head. Location: Gary, West Virginia."

• It's displayed just below our 1908 machine on it's respective LOC page.

I think this is one interesting propulsion design for 1908. I don't know, may be it's normal for its time, but I do not recall seeing something like this.

KorbenDallas said:

LOC also has this photograph titled, "Boy braking on motor train 10 hrs. a day. Where mining, loading, etc. is done by machinery. Live wire above is sometimes not higher than a man's head. Location: Gary, West Virginia."

• It's displayed just below our 1908 machine on it's respective LOC page.

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I think this is one interesting propulsion design for 1908. I don't know, may be it's normal for its time, but I do not recall seeing something like this.

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Here is an engraving of a motor train. Not the same mine but it is contemporary and shows the live wire and pick up.

So, is that normal and expected for 1908?

KorbenDallas said:

So, is that normal and expected for 1908?

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Whilst looking for a motor train in a mine 1908 I came across mule drawn carts and a steam engine used for the same purpose. I also came across compressed air powered drilling machines so there must be an accumulator or compressor nearby but out of shot.

It seems the key driver at least in American mines of the time was the intention of people in power or oif influence to be seen to be doing the right thing and removing children from the mining operations as evidenced by Hines employment up till WW1. He was employed by thee Federal Government and presumably he was not alone with other photographers in other industries.

As for the tram car motor train. The technology was replacing cable cars in cities so it wasn't cutting edge so likely well understood and it wouilkd not seem unreasonable to me for the inherent traction benefit of a heavy motor on a small bogie as a replacement for other forms of traction as mentioned above, to be noticed and employed by mine operators.
I'm sure with a little digging the manufacturers of these machines could come to light

I like the animation, you have motivated me and, if i have the time i will try and create one myself. Create one based on my sensory viewpoint.
My sensory viewpoint in a nutshell is there are two distinct machines here. I will use terms associated with construction excavators in our modern era.
The two machines I believe are present in this photo being
1) Excavator ( provides power, & mobility)
2)An Attachment. ( One of many perhaps for this machine)

So my rational for a power connection point is based on my many years operating excavators , skid steers ets..etc.. When i would need a hydraulic tamper i would lose the bucket, connect the tamper....however, the tamper would be useless if i had not connected the hydraulic line from excavator to power tamper.
Once attachment is disconnected it poses no threat even if power connections were exposed. Essentially once the attachment was discarded by the excavator it became nothing a lump of iron. Alternatively once the excavator re-attached, the attachment resurrected from death to life once again solely in spite of the excavator.

My senses tell me that upper arm ( #2 ) drives the attachment down, in addition pulls it back up.
Further more i believe i see a smaller arm connected to the the bottom/middle area of the attachment which I think could operate tilt ( up/down pitch) function of attachment.

Anyhow, its all speculation, fun & tbh a way to escape this bizarre world we are in for a moment. Have looked at this image many times & have many more thoughts about it, wish someone could just tell me what it is, how it works, what it does, lol.

jd755 said:

I know linking to the other place is frowned upon but in this instance perhaps its okay. If not then delete it.
I have added to the first time round discussion and the archive of it is over there.
Post one


Post two

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wow... great link, once took a peek and read i have more questions than before! lol.